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Mr Hats

Mr Hats

Join date : 2009-06-03
Age : 31
Location : Here where i can relax

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PostSubject: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 9:54 am

I was looking at the forum to see what this form was supposed to have and considering they have unlimited ice storms, Are they suposed to have Permanent True seeing. I sure hope not cause its gonna be the death of every sneaker on the server Sad
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J. Persinne
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Join date : 2009-04-29
Age : 31
Location : Seattle, WA, USA

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 10:30 am

Yes, this is intentional, though one might say it's a holdover from Genesis.

I don't see it as the death of sneakers. Rakshasa are one trick ponies. With a bit of gear it's all too easy to reduce their damage to practically zero.

However, not even everyone on staff is in agreement on this one, so it's possible that it will change in the future. If it did, we would work with the players of rakshasa-shape characters in order to make necessary alterations to their builds (e.g. to invest in a detect skill), naturally.
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Mr Hats

Mr Hats

Join date : 2009-06-03
Age : 31
Location : Here where i can relax

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 11:23 am

Well im ofcourse not saying it with cetainty, but it is a big possibility. And reducing the damage to almost 0 will be hard here since there is no resistance against elemental but only immunity that goes to 30% max or its what i understood. And since icestorm always does damage a 30% against 80 isnt that much if you consider they have unlimited slots.

Its not that i wish for it to disapear, but from my point of view i just consider it rather strong, and if to strong yes i would like to see it different. But its not up to me to decide so i rather wanna know from the people who actually have the shape or even played it.
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J. Persinne
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Join date : 2009-04-29
Age : 31
Location : Seattle, WA, USA

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 11:44 am

Immunity and resistance work out similarly at higher levels of damage.

In this case, 35% cold immunity (resistance gear) + 50% cold immunity (potion of fire aura) = 85% immunity.

~100 damage - (100 * .85) = 15.

Toss in a bit of hard resistance gear, of which there is a little bit, and ice storm will do single digit cold damage.

You understood item immunity correctly (though it's actually capped at 35%), but items aren't the only source of immunity or resistance. Wink

With that being said, let me make it clear that I'm neither arguing for nor against the current state of rakshasa balance. I'm simply throwing some numbers out there.
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Procyon

Procyon

Join date : 2009-06-05
Location : The Cold Northern Woods

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 12:04 pm

And I'll shoot this at point blank:

The potion of fire aura doesn't last very long, it's ok but not very long, yes you can drink them more and more... Equipment to resist ice storm is taken out of resisting/advancing something else. And since it does not have a reflex save(correct me if I'm wrong) Improved evasion is pretty useless which I think most if not all sneakers have. Not sure how Globe of Invulnerability works against the shape ice storm but that is one option too as is spell resistance. It's unlimited uses and what else. You get the picture I think.

Not that I'm against it or defending it but just throwing in some... uhm... text...
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Smoky

Smoky

Join date : 2009-05-27
Age : 37
Location : Sweden

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 2:12 pm

There is also tons of spells that help against elemental damage.
Ring of powers and stuff like that will also help.
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Rugnarie

Rugnarie

Join date : 2009-05-21
Age : 31
Location : Sudetenland!

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 2:15 pm

*casts spell resistance and shows middle finger to Rak*
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Thonil
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Thonil

Join date : 2009-04-29
Location : UK

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 2:26 pm

I had the same feeling you guys did, the bad feeling in the pit of my stomach where I thought OH GOD, EVERYONE GOING TO MAKE A RAK. Then I started thinking they'd be the new RDD and it got worst.

We're talking about some possible ways around it, since they are very strong in the current environment - however as J says they're one trick ponys. So we'd like to sit back and watch how it pans out before jumping into something and potentially fixing something that isnt even a problem.

You're our guinea pigs *Evil cackle*.

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Cryptic
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Join date : 2009-05-16
Age : 31
Location : Dystopia

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 5:09 pm

[And it spills out onto the public forums.]

I personally don't like the "you can gain 85% immunity" claim.

Many of these claims in defence of raks don't take into account the presence of a team. It's lovely that a rak can be wtfpwnt like that, but stims are a dime a dozen (or 12600 if you wanna be picky). Axfells in particular are no strangers to working together as a team.

Fire aura pots cost money, stims are a one time purchase. It's bad enough that PvP has been so governed by which side is willing to farm the most gold.

As has already been pointed out, getting 35% immunity to both cold and bludgeoning is gonna cost you item slots.

Real true seeing on the rak is a bigger thing for a rak than others because the rak has infinite ice storms to throw, which alerts the rest of the team to the approach of sneakers, regardless of whether he can actually kill them or not!


That said, I'm happy with the direction the discussion has been taking so far and I'm prepared to be proven wrong in the environment of real PvP. Don't despair guys, we're on your side (even when we disagree with each other) and have been talking this over long before this came up here! They won't be the new RDDs!


Keep up the feedback - we really appreciate it!

_________________
"Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe."
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Dalsok
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Join date : 2009-04-29
Age : 34
Location : Norway

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 10:11 pm

True the Raks can move togeather in a team but chances are when he does, he will also storm his bretheren!
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Rann Cora



Join date : 2009-05-21
Age : 33

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 11:03 pm

So, your scripted immunity and immunity from spells stack? This I was unaware of. Are you -absolutely certain- that this is true?
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J. Persinne
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Join date : 2009-04-29
Age : 31
Location : Seattle, WA, USA

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeTue Jun 16, 2009 11:13 pm

Yes.
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Mitch



Join date : 2009-06-15

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeThu Jun 18, 2009 12:54 am

I would also like to point out that what Cryptic said was true, Axfells do work together as team (Only because we have less numbers so every person is more valuble)

On topic though, one rakshasa or even two isn't too much to worry about, they're still vulnerable to a stim and cleric energy drains (since they can only be hit by lvl 9 spells). I say you mages should just mord them and throw one of your funky lvl 9 damaging spells at them and watch the fun.

As for true seeing instantly spotting sneakers, I too sense that this might kill off rogues and other sneaking classes, would it be possible to change the permanent TS to a castible version like the wyrmling shape? Rakshasa are the spellcasting shape of shifters, so.. meh?
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Drowess-



Join date : 2009-05-21
Location : Canberra, Australia

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeSat Jun 20, 2009 3:46 am

I agree that they're one trick ponies and should be taken into consideration as such.

However, sneakers being forced to gear against a one trick pony really reduces effectiveness. And they don't really have a choice, because if a Rak is around, it's not like they can use sneaking tactics and be a general nuisance, because they're visible no matter what.

Is there a possibility that a certain amount of ranks in sneaker class combined with a certain amount of skills in hide and MS could negate true seeing? I'm obviously talking epic levels here, and I'm just throwing the idea out, it was just off the top of my head.
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Rann Cora



Join date : 2009-05-21
Age : 33

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeSat Jun 20, 2009 10:43 pm

I've been a rak on Moth's version before. I can tell you, that it's cool and all seeing sneakers. But a) No one listens when you say run, and b) all the sneakers friends want you to die so the sneaker can do his thing. It's not really overpowered in a team environment, I know, from experience. I for one am playing a sneaker right now.... well... leveling slowly via afk experience since I spend all my time at work or sleeping; and the existence of a rak isn't going to make me stop playing a sneaker. If he spams on me, I'll stand next to his friend, and just stand there, and we'll both die. Or I'll stay far far away from him and work on isolating his friends. I mean, isn't that what a good rogue would do anyway? Isolate and destroy slowly?
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SteelCat

SteelCat

Join date : 2009-06-01
Age : 33
Location : Israel

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2009 4:28 am

Every class has it's counter-class.
Depending on the build, of course, raks are good vs sneakers, sneakers are good vs mages and some fighters, fighters are good vs raks, mages are good vs fighters, undead are good vs mages, clerics are good vs undead etc'...

Besides, any class can defeat any other class if played creatively. I will not throw ideas on how to kill raks for obvious reasons. Smile
Making ice storms the only pvp-hostile AoE is one of the things that weaken raks for example and there are many others.

So don't be sad if you can't be the ultimate all-pwning char because there is always someone who can defeat you.

(And it's Rak-sha-sa... please)
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J. Persinne
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Join date : 2009-04-29
Age : 31
Location : Seattle, WA, USA

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2009 5:32 am

Truth is, not much is good against a rak. A well-built one will have mid 70s AC, which most fighters will be hard-pressed to hit; some will need to roll a 20 to do so. Sneakers clearly aren't in a good position either, nor are other martial-based characters, or casters, for obvious reasons.

The rakshasa is perhaps the second toughest character-type in NwN, just behind a dedicated pale master.

I don't think it's a question of whether anything is good against a rak, because the very clear answer here is "no"; some classes fare better, relatively, but none will have an easy time taking them down. The more pertinent question is whether other classes can just as easily defend themselves from the rakshasa.

If the answer is "no", then there's clearly a problem here. If the answer is "yes", well -- then clearly, there isn't.
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Drowess-



Join date : 2009-05-21
Location : Canberra, Australia

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2009 10:04 am

Because pointing out a potential imbalance in constructive terms means we're complaining because we're not the ultimate pwn class...

Anyway.

Does Bless Weapon still work the same way on this server? And if so, does it apply to ranged weapons? Assuming the sneaker can hit it (No easy feat at all) then there is one way of combatting rak's.
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Cryptic
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Join date : 2009-05-16
Age : 31
Location : Dystopia

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2009 10:18 am

Bless can only be cast on crossbow bolts and the rak must have death ward down.

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"Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe."
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Mitch



Join date : 2009-06-15

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2009 10:40 am

I've never understood that quirk. Is it a bug? Bless Weapon, as in the Paladin spell (which is probably available to everyone now)?

I can take on a Rak, any time. Razz
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Rann Cora



Join date : 2009-05-21
Age : 33

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2009 9:27 pm

Also important to note: The bolt has to -damage- the rak as well. So you need to be good at using that damn thing or it's pointless. In my time as a rak I had many blessed bolts fired at me, several of which hit. I -never- died to it.
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Dalsok
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Join date : 2009-04-29
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Location : Norway

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2009 10:12 pm

bless Weapon has been changed if imnot wrong...
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J. Persinne
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Join date : 2009-04-29
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Location : Seattle, WA, USA

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2009 10:43 pm

Dalsok wrote:
bless Weapon has been changed if imnot wrong...
Shh.
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Drowess-



Join date : 2009-05-21
Location : Canberra, Australia

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeSun Jun 21, 2009 11:17 pm

Well there you have it. Assuming Death Ward and premonition aren't active, and you can use a crossbow and you hit with your one attack per round (unless you have rapid reload el oh el)

There is a possibility of killing a Rak Razz
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Thonil
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Thonil

Join date : 2009-04-29
Location : UK

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PostSubject: Re: Outsider Shape: Rashaska   Outsider Shape: Rashaska Icon_minitimeMon Jun 22, 2009 3:10 am

Oh yeh... Sure... *Shifty eyes*

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